SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First, thank you to everyone who replied to my original post.

I spent the last few days reading through a lot of the comments and trying to look at the situation from different angles. What surprised me was how split people were. Some thought I was overthinking everything, while others felt there were some serious red flags.

The one thing I kept seeing over and over was that, even if nothing sexual happened, certain boundaries were probably crossed.

One comment in particular stuck with me:

"If those had been women inviting them back to a villa after the festival, would they have gone? Probably not. The fact that they were attractive, successful men may have made some of those decisions easier."

I don't know if that's true, but it definitely made me think.

So instead of confronting my wife immediately, I decided to keep my mouth shut for a bit and just pay attention.

The first thing I wanted to know was who these guys actually were. After some digging through Instagram, I managed to find most of them. Some accounts were public, some private. From what I could tell, they weren't flashy rich-party types. A few seemed divorced, others looked single.

My wife, Leonor, and the rest of their group follow them, and they all follow my wife back. At least that told me these weren't complete strangers anymore.

The second thing I did was drive out and see the villa for myself. I know that sounds a bit obsessive, but I wanted to know what kind of place it actually was.

What I found was that it's very private. You can't really see anything from outside, it's in a quiet area, and there was decent security around the property.

I also learned that the villa belongs to one of the people from that group. So on that point at least, my wife was telling the truth.

The third thing I did was meet Leonor's husband for coffee. I didn't interrogate him or anything. We were just talking and I casually asked what Leonor had told him about that night. Interestingly, her story was almost identical to what Sofia told me. Apparently all four women were invited, but Martha and Carmen didn't go because they had a business trip the next morning. They encouraged Leonor and Sofia to go without them.

Leonor also told her husband a few things Sofia never mentioned to me. They had dinner, played cards, danced, and some of the dancing involved pairing up with the men who were there.

At some point around 2:30 in the morning they took drugs. There were around 10-12 people there altogether, including 5 women.

The thing that caught my attention most was that Leonor told her husband she changed clothes before coming home the next morning. My wife also came home in different clothes.

So unless there's some innocent explanation I'm missing, both of them changed outfits at the villa.

Over the last week Sofia has felt a little different with me. Not dramatically. Just slightly colder.
She's been busy with work and the kids. We've still been intimate twice and everything felt normal physically, but emotionally I feel like there's a distance there that wasn't there before.

Then a yesterday i told her My laptop wasn't working and I needed to use hers. I use it occasionally anyway, yeah i just wanted check her Instagram and WhatsApp too While I was on it, I noticed her Instagram and WhatsApp were already logged in.

I know people will have opinions about that, but yes, I looked.Most of the conversations were pretty normal.

There was a chat with Ines, the woman who hosted the gathering.

The next evening Sofia messaged her saying:

"Thanks for hosting. It was a really fun night. I'm glad I came and I don't regret it."

The rest of the conversation was mostly about future events, including a gala Ines is hosting next week that Sofia plans to attend.

There was another chat with a guy named Ryan.

Honestly, nothing there. He just sent some photos from the concert and villa.

The conversation that bothered me most was with a guy named Marcus.

The day after the party he messaged her:

Marcus: "How are you? Feeling okay?"

Sofia: "Yeah, I'm okay. Just feeling a bit dizzy."

Marcus: "Get some rest this weekend. Don't stress yourself. Don't regret anything."

Sofia: "I don't regret anything. I'm an adult and I made some choices. But yeah, Gujo seems angry about it."

Marcus: "Don't worry about him. He's probably just jealous."

Sofia: "Haha, on point."

Marcus: "Let's catch up for lunch next week."

Sofia: "My schedule is busy, but I'll make time."

That conversation happened the day after the villa.

There were only a couple of conversations after that. One was about a fashion designer Marcus knows that could help Sofia professionally. The other was about a work project.

What bothered me more was finding out they actually did meet for lunch on Thursday.

Sofia never mentioned that to me. So that's where things stand right now. I still don't have proof that my wife cheated.

What I do have is a situation where she went to a private villa with wealthy men she'd just met, stayed until morning, took drugs, changed clothes there, told another person she didn't regret her choices, and has continued building relationships with some of the people she met that night.

Maybe all of that is innocent. Maybe it isn't. The problem is that for the first time in our marriage, I don't know what to think. I'm not looking to catch her in a lie or punish her for having friends.

I'm trying to figure out whether my trust has been damaged because something genuinely crossed a line, or because my imagination is filling in blanks where I don't have answers.

I participated in your first thread and I don't recall anyone saying you were overthinking this. There were varying opinions about how far things may or may not have gone, but the consensus was pretty solidly that at the very least a boundary discussion would be prudent.

I still don't think you're overthinking this, and most of us have gone into snoop mode with our spouse's devices at some point. Tho in your case I probably would have broached the subject with your wife first. The "no regrets" conversation, "he's probably jealous," and unmentioned lunch meeting definitely raises an eyebrow. Jealous of what, exactly?

I agree you don't exactly have a smoking gun, but there is a hint of gunpowder residue in the air.

What behavior at the villa does your W not regret? She is meeting the same guy for lunch without mentioning it to you. She does not seem to respect your feelings. Just jealous? You do not sound like the jealous type. You're not bothered by your W going out often for GNO and coming in very late, even though you have small children. You need to have a conversation.

Read and reread Bigger's post in your first thread. Good luck.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:50 PM, Saturday, June 20th]

Derk, I hope I'm wrong about what I'm about to write. I really do.

Over the last week Sofia has felt a little different with me. Not dramatically. Just slightly colder.
...I feel like there's a distance there that wasn't there before.

My exww (ex wayward wife) left town on a Sunday morning for a trade-show (she traveled often for work). I picked her up at the airport Thursday evening. On the 20 minute drive home, I felt something was off. The greeting was odd, the tone of her voice, body language. None of it obvious. Just subtle. Over the next few days that feeling persisted. On Sunday I searched her phone. The text messages i read between her and OM (other man) were proof enough. Those text messages were from that morning. She'd slept with him the night before.

The messages you've read between your wife and Marcus may not be quite as explicit as the messages that I read. The fact that he reached out to her the very next day suggests a connection was made. That alone is a red flag. If there was nothing to regret, why mention regret at all? That is a massive red flag.

I trusted my instincts and they were right, unfortunately.

Again, I truly hope I'm wrong about this. I hope, for your sake, nothing happened. Sadly, I don't think I'm wrong.

OP, just for clarification, is Gujo you? I'm asking, because if it's you it may be that she means that you are angry about her going to the party, taking drugs, etc. and the guy jokes that you are jealous, because you missed out. That would explain the most suspicious part. It would show a dismissive attitude towards your feelings, something to discuss and work on. Also, if I can give you an advise, don't make her think that you are snooping, stay cool. Talk with her when you are sure that you won't find out anything more. Don't reveal to quickly what you know.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 3:24 PM, Saturday, June 20th]

If you disclosed your name or nickname, I recommend editing it. At the upper right of your post, you should see an icon that looks to me like a slanted stick - or a slanted pen. Click it to edit.

What concerns me about your update is that you've got an issue with your W, and you're lurking around it. IMO, that's avoidance, and avoidance doesn't work.

You've got an issue. For most of my M, my W raised issues, although she certainly let them lie during her A. For 15-20 years, I've done it, too. My experience, over 80 years in life and over 58 years in M, is that gut-level issues don't go away.

My reco is:

Be honest.

Talk with your W about 'this' - the party and the lunch.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:19 PM, Saturday, June 20th]

I’m sorry Derk, these are not encouraging facts.

I'm trying to figure out whether my trust has been damaged because something genuinely crossed a line, or because my imagination is filling in blanks where I don't have answers.

Your trust has been damaged because your wife’s behavior crossed lines.

No, we don’t know for certain what happened - but the evidence you do have is not great. But when it comes to trust, your wife has behaved inappropriately and you have become reasonably concerned.

Think about it this way: when people discuss legal ethics, it almost all contexts people are held to the standard of actual impropriety. That is to say, you’re not guilty of an ethical violation unless you did something wrong. There are contexts, however, where a higher standard is called for. Politicians, judges, and other similar people are held to an "appearance of impropriety" standard. They are required to avoid situations where a reasonable observer would perceive their conduct as compromising their integrity. That standard doesn’t test whether anything bad happened.

The "appearance of impropriety" standard is fundamentally about trust.

Your wife has created an appearance of impropriety - that’s why your trust is damaged.

A few other thoughts:

- That email to Ines is weird:

"Thanks for hosting. It was a really fun night. I'm glad I came and I don't regret it."

Thanks for hosting it was a really fun night and i’m glad I came is super normal and polite. But the "and I don’t regret it" is odd. Was everyone trying to convince her to go?

- Martha and Carmen had a business trip the next morning? On a weekend? Head scratcher.

- I guess I could believe that Leonor could bring a change of clothes to a music festival. I really don’t believe that she’d bring two changes of clothes though. Did she go to the festival with a suitcase?

- the fact that Leonor’s H got the same story as you is good probably, or it means that Sofia and her coordinated their story.

- the email exchange and lunch with Marcus is incriminating. No part of it is appropriate. She’s complaining about you to another man. That’s disloyal, period full-stop. Not to mention the whole I don’t regret the choices I made bit.

ETA: the more I think about her text to Ines, the more I worry that this was some kind of sex party. I hope that’s wildly off base.

[This message edited by Letmebefrank at 5:07 PM, Saturday, June 20th]

Those texts clearly show your wife is, at the very minimum, on a slippery slope toward an affair.

We all decide what we can live with. For my part, I am kind of stunned at the wavering acceptance you seem to be showing after your wife: stayed out partying all night with men she just met, did drugs without a sober person looking after her, did something that everyone is telling her she shouldnt regret doing and then met the encouraging guy for lunch--- the same guy who immediately dismisses her husband's concerns even though he's never met you.

You do not have to be paranoid about infidelity to see red flags in this Behavior. Married women shouldn't be partying with single men all night long and then meeting them for lunch later that week. And agreeing with them that their husband should have no say in the matter. Does anyone here think that this guy isn't trying to get in bed with your wife? Or maybe he already has and he wants to again.

Has she revealed anything else about what happened that evening? Have you been invited to the follow-up get together? If not that should be an enormous sign that she is doing something she doesn't want you to know about. But in truth you already have multiple signs that that's the case. I really can't see how you can fully trust her moving forward until you know what happened that night and what she thinks she shouldn't regret doing. Loving Partners don't hide things without a reason.

Friend I am sorry but this bad. Your WW is cheating on you. Let's be clear about that.

I'm not even talking about what she likely meant when it came to her ''choices'' that she made--not yet anyway, even if nothing physical happened, she has already crossed the line by a bit. I am instead talking about her A) keeping secrets with another man from you--you her HUSBAND; B) talking bad about you to him i.e., openly DISRESPECTING you; C) actually meeting him this other guy for lunch and developing some sort of friendship with him.

Right now it is YOU on one side, and your WW and OM on another. So even if her "choices" were just staying out all night with this group to party (yeah right) you are still dealing with something extremely serious.

And coming back to her "choices"--you are not naive. You already know that it's probably really bad and she likely did get physical.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:57 AM, Sunday, June 21st]

As I to,d you before and not to be pouring salt on the wounds.

Mixed parties with dancing and alcohol or drugs imply sexual promiscuity.

You don’t go there if you don’t want to get into such an environment.

If you are a woman, someone will hit on you. If you are a guy you go there to hit on some woman.
That’s the only reason why such parties exist.

Not a place for a man or a woman in a relationship.

That kind of intimacy after speaking about your own intimacy with another guy.

Look, it’s not impossible she didn’t do anything, just go to dance and do drugs with guys and change her clothes for the day after.

But let’s say the chances are about you go to a movie theater and don’t watch the movie.
She went there knowing what was going on there, and she choose not to regret anything.

Red flags 🚩 are massive.
Protect your self.

Man, I honestly thought this was a rage bait post since there were more red flags than a communist parade. One thing you will struggle to find is a wealthy, successful, anti-theist who is only having sex with with his wife or a wife who remains
faithful to her husband while hanging out with rich playboys and doing recreational drugs. I mean, it's possible but not probable.
Best of luck to you, brother.

I have a group of women I have known my entire life. One week a year we find a place to go, party, listen to music, dance, have some drinks, laugh our heads off and some of us flirt. Not a single one of us has ever gone with men anywhere and we have been asked.

Your wife is skating on very thin ice.

Post #1:

Interestingly, her story was almost identical to what *** told me. Apparently all four women were invited, but ** and *** didn't go because they had a business trip the next morning. They encouraged *** and *** to go without them.

I redacted the names in quoting this part of your OP, and I recommend you do the same OP.

This the quoted is a bizarre and troubling detail. Your WW's friends *encouraged* her to go hang out with other men?? It is also relevant because we tend to take on the mindsets and behaviours of our closest friends. So many WWs turn out to have a circle of friends who are ...... almost all WWs themselves.

This does make me wonder what the hell else has been going on during your WW's GNOs.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:59 PM, Sunday, June 21st]

Dude, how many red flags do you need? You are desperately searching for some innocent explanation for her behavior BUT IT DOES NOT EXIST

Now you have discovered that she is communicating with a guy from that night, had lunch with him, and blatantly dismissed YOUR feelings about that night! SHE HAD LUNCH WITH ANOTHER MAN AND DID NOT TELL YOU! Why do you think that is? Why would a married woman NOT tell her husband about a lunch date with another man?

IF it was a professional work lunch, a woman who respects her marriage and her husband would have discussed it BEFORE making plans. You know why she didn't.

At the villa she drank, paired up to dance with other men, took drugs, spent the night, came home in a different dress, secretly communicated with one of the guys from that night. NONE OF THAT BEHAVIOR IS ACCEPTABLE FROM A MARRIED WOMAN

I wish you the best and my apologies for being so blunt

Unusual annum licet insanire

Do the hardest 180 in your entire existence just for fun.

If she asks you why, just claim insanity, an epiphany or such.

Book a place over the next party and join as a surprise guest to her and her friends.
Be there as a judge to give votes about the before and after for the girls change of clothing.

In all faith, you can claim you be there to calm the minds of her friends husbands, and ensure that no matter the drugs, alcohol and dancing and ladies changing clothes (they do tend to get dirty those pesky clothes, a well known fact), what follows up is not an orgy, but a clever and respectful discussion about physics, philosophy and theology, we’re the women can finally show to these hedonistic men just how open they are, and receive praise for their integrity and dedication.

And then of course each one sleeps separately and respectfully in the full harmony of such nourishing events.

It’s also another display of moral integrity, they surely don’t want to risk traveling back home in the late night fucking smashed by drugs and alcohol.
That would not be cultural.

Be the unreasonable one for once, I am sure your wife would be pleasantly enthusiastic to see you as a surprise attendant to her parties, she can finally show you just what kind of woman and how open she is!

And really you are already on track to become as unreasonable as many of us here, you noticed her cold during intimacy and you speculated something is not right?

Nonsense!
She was just possibly thinking if you were unfairly thinking negatively about her change of clothes at another’s man house sleepover, after all you didn’t write if you complimented her taste, so you might have been a little insensitive here.

That’s why she meets these guys for lunch, to make sure she wasn’t unadvertidly triggering your insecurities and the other men confirmed it’s just your jealousy and she has nothing to regret. As she finally agreed.

Wholesome.

Be unreasonable man, do a hard 180 and go nuts.

Give your woman a chance to show you why you are oh so wrong and calm down your anxiety and fragile insecurities.
As the other men agree she is a very open and trustworthy one with nothing to regret not for this party nor for the next ones.

So I am sure she will notice and convince you to get around.

And until she does it, by doing that you will protect your emotions from developing an unwarranted betrayal trauma that could still destroy your life.

Put yourself first.
My deepest sympathies to you.

Nice post BackfromtheStorm

I wonder if Derk will get the message.

I hope he gets tested for "physically communicated critters." Or, gets himself a cast-iron phallus cover!

Nice post BackfromtheStorm

I wonder if Derk will get the message.

I hope he gets tested for "physically communicated critters." Or, gets himself a cast-iron phallus cover!

He is smart.

He is a good man who loves and trusts his woman and like most of us would prefer to be found paranoid and insane than to think their wife might not be the person they value her to be.

Routine STD checks can’t hurt as part of a bigger prevention plan for life hygiene.

I would recommend anyone whose partner has even just one night stands, Out at some stranger-hedonist’s home.

They might be pure and pristine, but the hedonists surely aren’t.

You have to go to use their toilet at some point, you may catch some nasty bug. That might explain the changes of clothes phenomenon for the ladies.

Op when we love we’d rather gauge our eyes and ears off than see who we love in any way lesser than how we trust them.

I get it, really.

Take care of your eyes anyway, they are worth more.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:09 PM, Sunday, June 21st]

What I do have is a situation where she went to a private villa with wealthy men she'd just met, stayed until morning, took drugs, changed clothes there, told another person she didn't regret her choices, and has continued building relationships with some of the people she met that night.

Derk, what more do you need to be upset? You have every right to be worried and angry.

Best case scenario, let's say the thing she mentions (twice!) not regretting is doing drugs. Let's say she fell in the pool, and that's why she had to change clothes. (Clearly she knows that she did something wrong, or she wouldn't be talking about regret. People don't regret doing the right thing.)

That's still sufficient for you to say that her behavior crosses a line for you. Marriage is supposed to be a partnership. You're allowed to have boundaries - asking her not to party with these people again isn't the same as asking her not to have friends or not to go out with friends. You're also allowed to say that you're uncomfortable with her staying out late and doing drugs. Whether or not she cheated on you, her behavior is unacceptable within the boundaries of a marriage.

It's also very strange that you're not going to the gala. Have you considered getting a babysitter and going with her?

I can't decide if you should play it cool for a while or be totally honest with her. In the former case, you're more likely to "catch her out" in a lie or if she ends up getting physical with the lunch guy. In the latter case, she could easily be dismissive or gaslight you (that's what happened to me whenever I confronted my ex about his behavior).

It sounds to me like you aren't ready to threaten your marriage over this, but you can let her know that if she goes, it will damage your relationship, and then do as others have advised and implement the 180. The sad truth is that if she has convinced herself that her behavior is fine, you can't force her to change her mind. The only actions you can control are your own.

In all faith, you can claim you be there to calm the minds of her friends husbands, and ensure that no matter the drugs, alcohol and dancing and ladies changing clothes (they do tend to get dirty those pesky clothes, a well known fact), what follows up is not an orgy, but a clever and respectful discussion about physics, philosophy and theology, we’re the women can finally show to these hedonistic men just how open they are, and receive praise for their integrity and dedication.

And then of course each one sleeps separately and respectfully in the full harmony of such nourishing events.

BackfromtheStorm, this made LOL! Thanks for the laugh.

In my college days, I once smoked pot and ate cookies and actually talked physics and philosophy with a guy friend. It was science-focused program with very few women, so a lot of my friends were male. STBWX (my boyfriend at the time) was away for the summer, and this guy's girlfriend was at work. There was zero flirting, just casual conversation.

Later in the evening, his girlfriend showed up, and they left. When I called STBWX later, he said he was really uncomfortable with what happened because one of his ex's ended up cheating on him this way, so I made a point to never again be alone with a guy while high. Not a big deal. STBWX's sense of security was more important to me than a few hours of eating cookies and chitchat. Derk's wife should respond the same way, but the tone of her text messages don't leave me optimistic.

[This message edited by NoThanksForTheMemories at 11:00 PM, Sunday, June 21st]

I am sorry, the likelihood of cheating is extremely high.