SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My WS and I have been in recovery for almost 3 years. In October 2023, I discovered his affair. It was long distance/online-messages, phone calls, etc.-but it was both emotional and sexual.

We spent a long time in counseling. He was doing all the "right" things. Things seemed to be going well. I really thought we were in a better place.

Until yesterday.

I found out that he has sent inappropriate messages to my sister. Yes, MY SISTER. It was mostly bad memes and inappropriate jokes (which I don’t care about), but there were a couple sexual comments thrown in. Apparently this has been going on for months, since at least December. At least once, she told him that the comments made her uncomfortable.

What makes this even more awful is what was happening in my life while this was going on. My dad had major surgery, and I was helping care for him. I was furious with my sister because she barely bothered to visit him, even when he was in the hospital five minutes from where she worked. My WS was the person I leaned on. He comforted me and agreed with me about what an ass my sister was being…while apparently sending her what he now calls "flirty" messages.

My dad died in March. Within a couple of months, my FIL started having serious health problems, and I spent a lot of time helping and visiting him. He passed away in August.

The past year has been incredibly hard, and I’m sure I haven’t been as affectionate or supportive toward my WS as I normally would be. But that is not an excuse. He could have talked to me. We could have gone back to therapy. There were so many better choices available.

Apparently he told her he was drunk when he crossed the lines, and honestly, I don’t doubt it. He is an alcoholic. Not a drink all day alcoholic, but the kind who comes home from work and drinks 10–16 large beers between then and bedtime. And regardless of whether he was drunk or whether he considered the messages "just joking," it’s not ok.

Now he is telling me how sorry he is and how badly he wants to make our marriage work. He says most of the messages were jokes, but he admits he crossed the line a couple of times.

It’s humiliating having to face my sister now. I know this is about his choices and isn’t a reflection of my worth, but I feel like she’s going to think I wasn’t enough for him so he needed more.

I don’t know what to do. I love him. But I told him that if he ever had another affair, I was done. I feel like if I make another attempt at reconciliation, I’m telling him that this is okay. I know this technically wasn’t an affair, but he crossed boundaries. I also may be blowing the whole thing out of proportion. Most of

He keeps asking me what he needs to do to fix this, and I honestly don’t know. I don’t know if this can be fixed, or even if I want to try. But after 30 years together, I’m also not sure I’m ready to give up.

I guess I’m mostly looking to get this off my chest and maybe get some advice. I’ve thought about sharing this site with him, but he would immediately know this post was mine, and I don’t know if that would make things worse.

For now, my intent is to do the 180. I was doing okay with that until he tried to reach out and touch me. I completely lost it and told him that his actions had taken away his right to touch me.

I’m just…lost.

TL;DR: Nearly three years into recovery from my WS’s previous emotional/sexual affair, I discovered he had been sending inappropriate jokes and some sexual messages to my sister for months. He blames being drunk, he is an alcoholic but that isn’t an excuse. I feel betrayed, embarrassed, and inadequate, and I don’t know whether to try reconciling again after 30 years of marriage.

Get it off your chest sister for it is the most therapeutic thing you can do as an initial step.

People who haven’t been through infidelity don’t understand how deep the abyss of the trauma is , here you find both sides of the adultery knowing exactly what you are going through.

You have been heard.

Trickle truth, minimization, blame shifting are a classic deflection strategy for a cheater who is unremorseful yet.

Basically, he doesn’t care no matter how much you suffer. He is blaming his dopamine and betrayal addiction to another addiction like if it were a uno reverse card.

And all this from a guy who would be more than happy to fuck his wife’s sister given the chance.

I am not going hard to hurt you, I am calling the girl inside you who is loving and worthy of love and is now bleeding to raise her head up and say out loud that she deserves better, respect in the first place.

You are the prize sister. Put yourself first and clearly state your boundaries.

What you want in your relationship. What things can never be accepted as they will cross your boundaries.

Put it on paper as a small excercise, it will help you to sort through the emotional chaos that is suffocating you right now.

It is also a first step into action, you will feel better.

Breathe deeply, diaphragmatic breathing, do some light excercise, yoga, a walk outside in the silence of nature, keep your head up and look at the trees and the sky. Feel your body, eat and sleep if you can.

It will help immensely to get you good chemicals to fight the bad ones that are flooding your system.

Put yourself first.

You deserve it.

And voice your emotions, we are here for you.

You have been heard.
You deserve inner peace.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:09 AM, Wednesday, September 16th]

^^^What BFTS wrote!!!^^^

Two little words are what your WH "needs to do to fix this:" STOP DRINKING. The bigger issue within him is that he is an addict making selfish choices, and if he does not decide to address that core issue, there isn't much point in arguing about the effects of his addiction on your M. He will need to decide to make that difficult decision and nobody else can make that decision for him.

If you are more or less okay with his drinking, so long as he doesn't commit adultery, please know this will affect how things will continue. And things will deteriorate one way or the other if his drinking doesn't change. He likely will need to stop alcohol completely if he is truly an alcoholic.

For you, deciding you will not live with an active alcoholic might or might not jolt him into taking whatever steps he needs to take next. My father was a serious drinker and like you, my Mother reached a point where she would not let him touch her and she asked him to sleep in a different bedroom. Their marriage ended several years after that when she gave up and fled. He later "hit bottom" and was told by doctors he would die soon unless he stopped drinking and miraculously he did stop.

I am also very sorry about the deaths in your family you have recently suffered. Please know it is at such times that people can find out further unpleasant things about their family as well, because illness and death test everyone's coping mechanisms. This also occurred in my family when my father died at 88 years old, 38 years after stopping alcohol. His heavy drinking throughout our childhoods had left a legacy of fractured relationships among us and my brothers both became substance abusers; I ended up having to cease contact with one of them.

This is all a part of our grief. I'd advise you to seek a supportive IC and your WH could benefit from some peer support to help him control his urge to drink. Don't be his therapist, however. I meant some kind of group therapy or AA.

[This message edited by Superesse at 4:30 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

This sucks I am so sorry. You are definitely not blowing anything out of proportion. Take some time to recover yourself and put yourself at peace - you don’t have to make any decisions right away. A question I have is did you see the messages? Or were they recounted to you ? I would investigate further to make sure there’s not more going on. There’s no reason your spouse should be texting your sister at all. He definitely is crossing boundaries ; and it shows his lack of commitment to reconciliation. If he is actively drinking that much , he is not working on himself. If he is not working on himself, he’s not going to be able to take care of your heart the way that you deserve it.

I don't know what your relationship with sister was like before your husband's actions or your father's illness, but this part of your post stuck out to me:

I was furious with my sister because she barely bothered to visit him, even when he was in the hospital five minutes from where she worked. My WS was the person I leaned on. He comforted me and agreed with me about what an ass my sister was being…while apparently sending her what he now calls "flirty" messages.

Your husband knew at this moment in time that your relationship with your sister was particularly strained... and that's when he decided he was going to go on a fishing expedition with her and see if she would bite. That, plus the fact that he was doing this since December, tells me that this isn't some drunken foolery but a very calculated pursuit.

Now he is telling me how sorry he is and how badly he wants to make our marriage work. He says most of the messages were jokes, but he admits he crossed the line a couple of times.

Let's be real. If he thought he was joking around harmlessly, you would've known about it long before yesterday. And he didn't just cross a line... he tap-danced right over it. And based on how long he was doing this, how brazen his behavior was, and how outrageous his choice of target, I don't think you should assume that this was his only indiscretion since your last discovery.

It’s humiliating having to face my sister now. I know this is about his choices and isn’t a reflection of my worth, but I feel like she’s going to think I wasn’t enough for him so he needed more.

Again, I don't know what your relationship is like with your sister, but if there is any love between you, then she likely thinks poorly of him, not you.

BackfromtheStorm
Thank you. I prefer straight forward answers even if they are hard to hear. You have given me a lot to think about and much needed motivation to do things for me.

This is so on point.

Basically, he doesn’t care no matter how much you suffer. He is blaming his dopamine and betrayal addiction to another addiction like if it were a uno reverse card.

I really don’t think he would have fucked her. This is not me making excuses, I don’t think he has the balls to follow through. He also really doesn’t like her as a person. He’s apparently needy for attention and craving that dopamine rush. Not that any of that matters.

Superesse
Thank you for sharing your story. I agree with so much of what you’ve said. I’ve made it clear how I feel but I have not given him an ultimatum yet. I want to take my time to really think about everything. I want to make sure I am making decisions for me using my brain not my heart.

Leeleelu- I did see the messages. Most of them were stupid off color jokes. Which she also sent to him. But there were a couple that definitely beyond sending jokes. I told him he needed a plan on how he was going to make changes before I would even consider reconciliation. He decided that he was going to make healthier choices on his own. But I told him that making diet and exercise changes were a great start but he needs a plan for improving his mental health and addiction issues. I’ve strongly encouraged counseling but I am not forcing it. He needs to want to make the changes.

BluerThanBlue
He did more than tap dance. He stomped with heavy spiked boots. My relationship with my sister has not been great for a long time. I believe she’s a narcissist and most likely bipolar. She’s very self centered. She often complains that I don’t comment or like her Facebook posts which is ridiculous because I don’t like or comment on anyone’s or spend much time looking at people’s posts but I have made an effort to do it for her because it’s apparently a thing 🤷‍♀️.

Again, I don't know what your relationship is like with your sister, but if there is any love between you, then she likely thinks poorly of him, not you.

I don’t know how it will go. But I’ve already been working on low contact. I’m still harassed and teased about things I did when I was a child (4-8 age). Her stories are often wrong and for years I was convinced that I was the stupid adhd child that could remember anything. Luckily she posts on facebook all the time so I can call her out on it if I feel like it🤣. Or at least know my reality is true.

I really appreciate all of the comments, advice and more than anything the support. I wish I had found this group earlier on for round 1. I made a lot of mistakes. I was way too emotional, worried about his emotional wellbeing (there was some major depression involved) and willing to do too much to make it work.

This time, I have made it very clear that I have one foot out the door. I am mostly calm, to the point and very blunt. He is aware that divorce is very much a consideration. It’s been a reality check for him. He admitted that he didn’t think it would be a possibility.

We are in the same house but sleeping in different rooms. He asked if he could hug me tonight and I said no. I’m standing my ground and using my head to weigh everything out. And I thank the members of this forum for helping me know how and why I need to do this. It is very empowering and that’s what I need.

I plan to consult with a lawyer (or 3) and hopefully a financial advisor in case I decide to go that direction.

I have not made up my mind but I know I have options and right now the choice is mine to make.

As my name indicates I’m a big guy and I can hold my alcohol quite well… but to down 10-16 large beers per day would test me…
Doing this in the teeny-weeny gap between work and getting to bed… Wow…
Doing so near daily… Wow Wow Wow…
Does he realize that if he is 6ft, 220 pounds, starts at 6 and stops at 11 he’s still legally DUI until about noon next day? Does he realize that doing this several days in a row builds up an accumulation, extending the period towards physical sobriety? Yet I’m assuming he get’s to work every morning in his car. Don’t know if my random guestimate on his size fits, but he would need to be over 8 ft tall and 500 pounds to cope with that amount of booze and be safe.

On a side-note- Do you realize that you two are only a roadside accident away from bankruptcy? Rear-ends a car at a red light, other driver smells traces of booze and calls the cops, claims whiplash, your insurance points to the terms of coverage and all of a sudden lawyers are valuing your house…

This is a problem, and possibly the root of the present marital issues.
Yes – alcoholism isn’t an excuse for his behavior, but it is probably a big part of the reason, and the reason you can’t expect change while he’s still an active alcoholic.

I have a theory that I have developed after years on this site, after working in an environment with a lot of addicts/alcoholics and after volunteering with recovering addicts… It’s just a theory, but I wouldn’t be putting it here if I didn’t think it true:

An addict/alcoholic will prioritize his fix over ANY OTHER matter or issue.
That includes you and the marriage.
This is why I got calls as a cop from day-care workers when parents came to pick up their kids reeking of booze. Their need for a liquid lunch surpassed the requirement of being safe and capable of driving their kids home. This is why I entered homes with kids present where there was an empty refrigerator except for a sixpack of suds and a bottle of vodka.

Have you been talking to your husband about his drinking? I sometimes think alcoholics create "disturbances" in the marriage simply to divert the issue from the drinking to the "innocent" jokes to SIL.

Now – Let’s imagine he was a teetotaler and had done all this completely sober. More or less standard SI advice would be that he get’s therapy to understand and fix his "why". I would even venture here and now the root cause would be a need for external validation, and the "treatment" a realignment on what validation really is, and where he can get safe, logical and healthy validation. The therapist and the patient have a baseline to work from: The therapist can evaluate how to get the message across and how capable the patient is to reccieve instructions and treatment.
Now imagine him drunk… That baseline can be 10, or it can be 100 depending on if he’s drunk, sober, hung-over, on his third or twelfth beer, if he took a shot… The fluctuations make his ability to change his ways near impossible.

-
I mentioned the legal risk he’s placing you two in.
One thing a recovering alcoholic told me that stuck is that alcoholism can only end with sobriety or death. It’s an illness that kills. Only it kills in so many different ways. It can be that he slips and falls down the stairs, he can hit a brick wall driving down the street, he can stumble and break his neck, or he can wreck his liver and die in a hospital, having drained the family savings in the process.
-

I don’t think you are willing to leave, so I wont push that agenda.
But you do need to be willing to demand changes, and enforce those changes…

What I would do is voice your concerns about his drinking and the risk he’s placing the whole family in with it. Don’t ask for him cutting down, don’t accept 8 bottles a day. Demand sobriety.
Ask that he commits to 30 days of AA meetings, and that he follows the program. Tell him that after those 30 days he can talk to you about if he wants to carry on – and then be capable of working on the marriage too – or if he wants his booze back. Only make a couple of things clear to him:
His answer will tell you how he feels about you, the marriage, the family and it’s safety, and that you will need to evaluate your future and how to safeguard it based on his decisions and actions.

I really don’t think he would have fucked her. This is not me making excuses, I don’t think he has the balls to follow through. He also really doesn’t like her as a person. He’s apparently needy for attention and craving that dopamine rush. Not that any of that matters.

As I told you, here you are not dealing with dating, mating and regular relationships, you are dealing with a broken person trying to fill a bottomless void of low self worth with a fix of validation and dopamine.

I you are still looking at him as an adult person but you wouldn’t be wrong to better see him as an addict, the kind of ones that would drink perfumes to get their alcohol fix.

I doubt your sister would be down to ever get so sordid with your husband. She might be embarrassed and disgusted by his avances.

The example was to show what he could be capable of, given the opportunity anything that he may claim "I would never do it" even the unspeakable, he will go for it if it gives him a second of validation fix and dopamine.

Is not to bash him, he is broken, he is doing enough to bash himself already.

This is for you to realize the measure of instability you are dealing with. He is no safe by any stretch of imagination, and even just being aware of what someone in this fog could pull out is a tool to prevent further shock for you and trauma when secrets and lies unavoidably fall like a house of cards.

I have no response for grown adults who lie and cheat then SWEAR they want to Reconcile but use the "I don’t know what to do" cop-out.

Honestly he had enough brain power to cheat so I would guess there is enough brain power to figure out how to reconcile.

As far as you distinguishing the type of alcoholic he is... as Bigger pointed out, 10 to 16 pounders a day is a lot. I used to drink like that. Maybe even more. I quit about ten years ago. If he does stop watch for white knuckling. Someone who's just stopping because they have to, not because they want to. He really has to want to do it.

I hope he finds that desire.

As for the rest of his behavior - YOUR SISTER?? I don't blame you for being furious with them both. Don't accept any half measures and get your lawyer on speed dial. I've seen many stories, my own included, where real change began with taking steps to end the relationship. Make sure of you do go that direction that you're prepared to follow through. Don't threaten divorce if you don't mean it. You don't want to use it as a manipulation tactic.

I am with Bluer than blue on what she wrote. And now that you have explained the situation with your sister, here is my response to this:

It’s humiliating having to face my sister now. I know this is about his choices and isn’t a reflection of my worth, but I feel like she’s going to think I wasn’t enough for him so he needed more.

Given that she never said anything to you about it, to me she is complicit.

Yes she said it made her uncomfortable in the text string, but if it made her uncomfortable enough she should have told you. My guess is she still got something out of it, even if it was cheap validation.

I am not sure in that context you are the one who should be embarrassed. Not telling you formed a contact with him in many ways that enabled his behavior more.

If my brother-in-law sent me one single thing like this, I would show both my husband and my sister. And in my ditch, my sister is a little like yours and I only talk to her a few times a year.

I am with the others on what to do about him - he needs to quit drinking and get in therapy. Without that, divorce is your only option. And you do not owe him another chance either way.

I apologize for whatever is going on with the quotes. They just don’t seem to be working right for me tonight. I hope you can figure out what I’m trying to say.

Bigger, your message is extremely powerful, thank you. I learned a lot from your message and even more from the rabbit hole it sent me on.

You are spot on with this:

I would even venture here and now the root cause would be a need for external validation, and the "treatment" a realignment on what validation really is, and where he can get safe, logical and healthy validation.

Backfromthestorm, I appreciate you saying that he isn’t safe. You are right and I need to hear it and remember it. And this couldn’t be more accurate

you are dealing with a broken person trying to fill a bottomless void of low self worth with a fix of validation and dopamine.

He realizes it too. This is something he sent to me yesterday. Until he actually does something to help him make changes these are just words…

From WS:

"I don't know why I have this deep need to be liked and to be told I'm good enough... It's not conscious and I never thought about it much, but you're right... I have this desire to be liked and told "good job"... it's selfish and I have definitely overlooked your needs and doing for you, what I'm trying to get. Reflecting heavily, this is my problem... it is the root cause of all my destructive behavior. I need to sit down with myself and get that sorted out, because until I can convince myself that "I'm good enough", I won't have a need for others to even talk to me. Unfortunately, the only person that can convince me or tell me what to do is ME.... I am stubborn and get in ruts and then get mad at myself about it. I need to stop finding distractions and stop with this need to be liked and quit lying to myself because it only causes harm."

The1stWife - 💯 agree. I’ve actually told him that if he took half the energy he spent on lying and cheating and put it towards something positive, he would be in a better place and we would be in a better place.

Pogre This!!

Make sure of you do go that direction that you're prepared to follow through. Don't threaten divorce if you don't mean it. You don't want to use it as a manipulation tactic.

He is very aware that divorce is a possibility. But I am not going to threaten until I am ready to follow through.

I don’t think he wants to stop drinking. And I don’t want to attempt to make him because I don’t think it will work in the long run if he doesn’t want it. Right now I don’t think he’s even at a point where he’s able to without professional help and have told him that. But he has to make the decision to get help. If he doesn’t, it will no longer be my problem.

Hiking out- I think you are correct on this:

Given that she never said anything to you about it, to me she is complicit.

Yes she said it made her uncomfortable in the text string, but if it made her uncomfortable enough she should have told you. My guess is she still got something out of it, even if it was cheap validation.

I looked through the messages and for the most part she ignored the more inappropriate messages but didn’t tell him to stop. And even sent at least one that I think is not any better than what he sent. I feel like she sent mixed messages. I’m with you, I would have sent "what’s wrong with you" to my BIL and sister with a screenshot.

[This message edited by Thissucks71 at 4:41 AM, Friday, September 18th]

From WS:

"I don't know why I have this deep need to be liked and to be told I'm good enough... It's not conscious and I never thought about it much, but you're right... I have this desire to be liked and told "good job"... it's selfish and I have definitely overlooked your needs and doing for you, what I'm trying to get. Reflecting heavily, this is my problem... it is the root cause of all my destructive behavior. I need to sit down with myself and get that sorted out, because until I can convince myself that "I'm good enough", I won't have a need for others to even talk to me. Unfortunately, the only person that can convince me or tell me what to do is ME.... I am stubborn and get in ruts and then get mad at myself about it. I need to stop finding distractions and stop with this need to be liked and quit lying to myself because it only causes harm."

It’s a common thread shared by many cheaters (the borderline cases are dark triads who have different sick compulsions, we are speaking of the waywards who generally didn’t think they could or would do it).

Low self worth. The "need to be seen" is shared among everyone, you me, anybody who forms relationships craves to be accepted for who they are by significant people. Friends, family, and the most important and deepest, your chosen partner.

That’s functional and healthy. You crave to be yourself wi5 others without the need to fake.

Low self worth hijacks this. You are afraid you are not enough, so you have to perform to be accepted, because you are terrified you are not worthy.

The sick coping following this is craving and hunting for validation, external validation soothes this anxiety and gives you respite. The craving will make it at some point not only triggering oxytocin as normal (being seen and liked is nice, but that’s about it), but enables the release of dopamine when it happens, making you almost a junkie for validation.

But that’s short lived, it hits and fades quickly, because there is no ground holding your baseline behind the mask, just a void left from the lack of your own self love. You end up craving more and more often.

The biggest hit of them all is sexual attraction validation. Emotional, physical, whatever, we are wired to go to the skies for that.

And with the same void still unfilled, that also fades into the emptiness. You filled his world when you mated, but his bottle has no bottom, so eventually it spilled all into his abyss and he felt again like shut. Worthless.

Then a woman comes, with the same flaws and thirst, and they recognize each other, ready to roll in the mud if they can fill this void temporarily and both knowing it doesn’t need to be real, it just need to be repeated, available and transactional.

Paradoxically he feels is nothing bad because he’s feeling better makes him better towards you as well (in his mind, while in truth you just risk an std in addition to trauma).

And so it goes on.

And when he doesn’t have that fix, he needs to hammer himself with alcohol so that he can’t hear the voices of his fears tell him he is not worthy and he is fake, is the copying his ego uses to hold up, while he can hide behind it, inactive, allowing the ego to drive, because it’s familiar, safe.

Truth is, he is not this way. Very rarely people are that shitty. He embraces a dysfunctional coping mechanism to keep the comfort zone of what is familiar and comfortable, instead of stepping up and grow from the inner child into the man he is today.

If you lack self love you can’t love, you can only hurt yourself and others.

Each fucked up choice will spiral him deeper.
And in the end he could stand up anytime from this shitshow, it feels impossible but is also the easiest thing ever.

Starting with looking in the mirror and liking himself for what he feels inside, while hating what he allowed to become. Disavowed the ego and the mask he is wearing, behind that there is a lovable human being.

But he is the only person in this world who can decide to rip that fucker off.